Editor’s Note: The following is a conversation Christ the King Law Center's (CKLC) president had with a young man (hereinafter referred to as "YM") who was an administrator of CKLC's facebook page. We thought we would share it to clarify any questions or concerns others had regarding our organization and any ties it might have with the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) especially considering the recent news about the SSPX. Furthermore, we also believe this conversation might also address any questions or concerns about our position on Vatican II and religious liberty. In order to respect this young man's identity we are not giving out his name.
YM: Hey I was wondering if you could please remove me from the "Christ the King" Facebook admin. I don't feel called to do it right now. Thanks and God Bless. I am just really busy with school right now. I was also going to mention that I am trying to develop my understanding of Vatican II and the Catholic State in an interpretation of continuity with that which came before. I know the site does not necessarily agree with this view so I just wanted to mention where I stand in this issue. God Bless!
CKLC: Hello [name deleted]. Alright. I will remove you. Being a site administrator certainly does not oblige you to spend a certain amount of time doing anything especially when you are busy but you can do what you wish. You also mention that you are trying to develop your understanding of Vatican II and the Catholic State in an interpretation of continuity with that which came before. I do not see how being a site administrator keeps you from doing that. I have certainly tried to learn about how Vatican II can be interpreted in a manner that is consistent with previous teaching but we have to be honest that this is, at least, very difficult. My organization has not as of now taken any public position regarding the continuity of the Vatican II documents with regards to tradition. Our beliefs are stated in the "About US" section on our website whereby we affirm our belief in the Tridentine Creed and in Pope St. Pius X's Oath against Modernism. These are things that every Catholic must subscribe to regardless of Vatican II. Vatican II is not a council that defined new dogmas and whatever real or imagined new teachings that contradict prior infallible teachings by the Church and in Sacred Tradition must be rejected. I assume you would believe in that.
Also if I may add: I do not know if you have ever read Michael Davies' book "The Second Vatican Council and Religious Liberty" but if you did not I think you should. It is a clear and balanced analysis on the teaching of the Church regarding religious liberty and its comparison with the liberal errors as well as the difficulties of trying to interpret Vatican II to be in conformity with the traditional Church teaching on religious liberty.
YM: Thank you for your response. I agree that there are indeed a number of passages and documents within the Second Vatican Council that do contain a good amount of ambiguity and are indeed unclear. I definitely do not think this is a good thing. I also believe that there are room for criticism of a number of things about the Council. It is also very true that the Second Vatican Council also did not define any doctrine and so it did was by no means an exercise of the Extraordinary Magisterium. But it was infallible in so far as it was an act of the Ordinary Magisterium. And while the Council did not define anything knew (which would require an ascent of faith) it does use the language of development which must be given (a religious ascent of mind and will). Furthermore the Council does touch upon previous Church teaching regarding dogma and previously defined teaching (which I don't believe the Council can contradict in any meaningful way). I would say such development and interpretation of the Council must be done in a matter of continuity rather than rupture. In the case of the Catholic State for example, my understanding is that the Council merely developed the teaching of a Catholic State rather than did away with it. This is true of a development of the relationship between Church and State, which simply gave a more fuller understanding as to what the State could allow and suppress. My understanding is that the Council simply stated that the State was limited to regulating errors dealing with Morality and the Natural Law, while religious errors were developed as being primarily the Church's duty to correct. An idea that was already talked about by Pope Pius XII. Also while religious liberty is indeed a real thing, the Council, namely Dignitatis Humane clearly states that it is limited and regulated by the Common Good. Nor does it prevent the creation or continuation of a Catholic Confessional State. I will look into Michael Davies' book. Also if have not read them already, here are two articles that I read upon Vatican II and the Catholic State which I thought were good reads. I also wanted to simply mention in regards to being a site admin that I also did not want to give the impression that I support or endorse groups such as the Society of Saint Pius and more particularly independence chapels that are not in full Communion with Rome. In regards to the Society of Saint Pius I do believe it is very probable that they will become regularized but for the time being I don't feel comfortable promoting a group that is for one reason or another not in a fully regular canonical position with the Magisterium simply because I do think that full unity is an important issue. God Bless!
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=8778
Library : Dignitatis humanae and Traditional Teaching on Church and State
<em> Dignitatis humanae </em> and Traditional Teaching on Church and State William Marshner, as a theological editor of Faith & Reason not directly involved in the religious liberty controversy triggered by Prof. Wolfe's article, participated closely in the gathering and evaluation of the various co...
catholicculture.org
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/5443/The_End_of_the_Catholic_State.aspx
CKLC: Wow [name deleted]. You have covered a lot here and I respect that. As I said it is your choice if you want to be a site administrator or not. That being said I believe you may be a little bit overly scrupulous in this matter. Nobody sees whether you are a site administrator if you post as an administrator on the facebook page and I do not tell anyone else about you being an administrator nor are you listed as an administrator to the public. Furthermore my organization Christ the King Law Center (CKLC) is not a part of the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX). We take no official position regarding the SSPX and/or so-called independent chapels other than what we state on our web and facebook page. We certainly do not permit rash judgment of the SSPX such as statements accusing them of schism or heresy especially in light of statements from the Holy See saying that the SSPX is neither. We give the SSPX neither uncritical support nor universal condemnation. Furthermore I have received approval from Father James Fryar of the Fraternity of Saint Peter to list him as a spiritual advisor of CKLC. Go on the webpage and see. Also I have had Father Robert Bishop who does the Latin Mass at St. Therese Church in Alhambra review my website and tell me he saw no problem with it. My theological advisor Mr. David Rodriguez confirmed with his spiritual director that it was alright to be a theological advisor to my group. He is listed on my web page in the "About" section. You may want to consult with your spiritual director/advisor as well. You are welcome to contact all these individuals to confirm although I am not sure how much Father Bishop remembers our conversation since it was over the telephone.
And as I said before CKLC has not taken a position regarding whether Vatican II is in continuity with tradition. If you believe it is in continuity I am not going to consider that as disqualifying you from being a site administrator. However, we do assent and agree and we expect all those who volunteer with us to assent and agree with the traditional infallible teaching of the Church regarding religious liberty especially as expressed in the Encyclical Quanta Cura by Blessed Pope Pius IX. (See here: http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quanta.htm). We condemn and reject and we expect all those who volunteer with us to condemn and reject any and all of the errors condemned and rejected by the Church in this Encyclical. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia Quanta Cura is described as one of the "final decisions of the infallible teaching authority of the Church..."
We also condemn and reject and we expect all those who volunteer with us to condemn and reject any and all of the errors condemned and rejected by the Church in Blessed Pope Pius IX's Syllabus of Errors. (See here: http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm). According to the Catholic Encyclopedia "The binding power of the Syllabus of Pius IX is differently explained by Catholic theologians. All are of the opinion that many of the propositions are condemned if not in the Syllabus, then certainly in other final decisions of the infallible teaching authority of the Church, for instance in the Encyclical "Quanta Cura"... [N]evertheless the binding force of the condemnation in regard to all the propositions is beyond doubt. For the Syllabus, as appears from the official communication of Cardinal Antonelli, is a decision given by the pope speaking as universal teacher and judge to Catholics the world over. All Catholics, therefore, are bound to accept the Syllabus. Exteriorly they may neither in word nor in writing oppose its contents; they must also assent to it interiorly." (See here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14368b.htm)
The Encyclical Quanta Cura condemns the following statement: "the best constitution of public society and (also) civil progress altogether require that human society be conducted and governed without regard being had to religion any more than if it did not exist; or, at least, without any distinction being made between the true religion and false ones." (paragraph 3)
These other statements are condemned as well: "that is the best condition of civil society, in which no duty is recognized, as attached to the civil power, of restraining by enacted penalties, offenders against the Catholic religion, except so far as public peace may require." (Ibid).
The Encyclical goes on to describe this statement as an "erroneous opinion" that is "most fatal in its effects on the Catholic Church and the salvation of souls" and an "insanity": "liberty of conscience and worship is each man's personal right, which ought to be legally proclaimed and asserted in every rightly constituted society; and that a right resides in the citizens to an absolute liberty, which should be restrained by no authority whether ecclesiastical or civil, whereby they may be able openly and publicly to manifest and declare any of their ideas whatever, either by word of mouth, by the press, or in any other way." (Ibid). And persons who preach this statement are preaching "liberty of perdition". (Ibid).
Christ the King Law Center (CKLC) condemns and rejects the above statements and expects all those who volunteer with us to condemn and reject these statements.
The Syllabus of Errors condemns the following propositions:
"15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true.
55. The Church ought to be separated from the State, and the State from the Church.
77. In the present day it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship.
78. Hence it has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship.
79. Moreover, it is false that the civil liberty of every form of worship, and the full power, given to all, of overtly and publicly manifesting any opinions whatsoever and thoughts, conduce more easily to corrupt the morals and minds of the people, and to propagate the pest of indifferentism.
80. The Roman Pontiff can, and ought to, reconcile himself, and come to terms with progress, liberalism and modern civilization."
Christ the King Law Center (CKLC) condemns and rejects these propositions and expects all those who volunteer with us to condemn and reject these statements.
YM: Hey I was wondering if you could please remove me from the "Christ the King" Facebook admin. I don't feel called to do it right now. Thanks and God Bless. I am just really busy with school right now. I was also going to mention that I am trying to develop my understanding of Vatican II and the Catholic State in an interpretation of continuity with that which came before. I know the site does not necessarily agree with this view so I just wanted to mention where I stand in this issue. God Bless!
CKLC: Hello [name deleted]. Alright. I will remove you. Being a site administrator certainly does not oblige you to spend a certain amount of time doing anything especially when you are busy but you can do what you wish. You also mention that you are trying to develop your understanding of Vatican II and the Catholic State in an interpretation of continuity with that which came before. I do not see how being a site administrator keeps you from doing that. I have certainly tried to learn about how Vatican II can be interpreted in a manner that is consistent with previous teaching but we have to be honest that this is, at least, very difficult. My organization has not as of now taken any public position regarding the continuity of the Vatican II documents with regards to tradition. Our beliefs are stated in the "About US" section on our website whereby we affirm our belief in the Tridentine Creed and in Pope St. Pius X's Oath against Modernism. These are things that every Catholic must subscribe to regardless of Vatican II. Vatican II is not a council that defined new dogmas and whatever real or imagined new teachings that contradict prior infallible teachings by the Church and in Sacred Tradition must be rejected. I assume you would believe in that.
Also if I may add: I do not know if you have ever read Michael Davies' book "The Second Vatican Council and Religious Liberty" but if you did not I think you should. It is a clear and balanced analysis on the teaching of the Church regarding religious liberty and its comparison with the liberal errors as well as the difficulties of trying to interpret Vatican II to be in conformity with the traditional Church teaching on religious liberty.
YM: Thank you for your response. I agree that there are indeed a number of passages and documents within the Second Vatican Council that do contain a good amount of ambiguity and are indeed unclear. I definitely do not think this is a good thing. I also believe that there are room for criticism of a number of things about the Council. It is also very true that the Second Vatican Council also did not define any doctrine and so it did was by no means an exercise of the Extraordinary Magisterium. But it was infallible in so far as it was an act of the Ordinary Magisterium. And while the Council did not define anything knew (which would require an ascent of faith) it does use the language of development which must be given (a religious ascent of mind and will). Furthermore the Council does touch upon previous Church teaching regarding dogma and previously defined teaching (which I don't believe the Council can contradict in any meaningful way). I would say such development and interpretation of the Council must be done in a matter of continuity rather than rupture. In the case of the Catholic State for example, my understanding is that the Council merely developed the teaching of a Catholic State rather than did away with it. This is true of a development of the relationship between Church and State, which simply gave a more fuller understanding as to what the State could allow and suppress. My understanding is that the Council simply stated that the State was limited to regulating errors dealing with Morality and the Natural Law, while religious errors were developed as being primarily the Church's duty to correct. An idea that was already talked about by Pope Pius XII. Also while religious liberty is indeed a real thing, the Council, namely Dignitatis Humane clearly states that it is limited and regulated by the Common Good. Nor does it prevent the creation or continuation of a Catholic Confessional State. I will look into Michael Davies' book. Also if have not read them already, here are two articles that I read upon Vatican II and the Catholic State which I thought were good reads. I also wanted to simply mention in regards to being a site admin that I also did not want to give the impression that I support or endorse groups such as the Society of Saint Pius and more particularly independence chapels that are not in full Communion with Rome. In regards to the Society of Saint Pius I do believe it is very probable that they will become regularized but for the time being I don't feel comfortable promoting a group that is for one reason or another not in a fully regular canonical position with the Magisterium simply because I do think that full unity is an important issue. God Bless!
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=8778
Library : Dignitatis humanae and Traditional Teaching on Church and State
<em> Dignitatis humanae </em> and Traditional Teaching on Church and State William Marshner, as a theological editor of Faith & Reason not directly involved in the religious liberty controversy triggered by Prof. Wolfe's article, participated closely in the gathering and evaluation of the various co...
catholicculture.org
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/5443/The_End_of_the_Catholic_State.aspx
CKLC: Wow [name deleted]. You have covered a lot here and I respect that. As I said it is your choice if you want to be a site administrator or not. That being said I believe you may be a little bit overly scrupulous in this matter. Nobody sees whether you are a site administrator if you post as an administrator on the facebook page and I do not tell anyone else about you being an administrator nor are you listed as an administrator to the public. Furthermore my organization Christ the King Law Center (CKLC) is not a part of the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX). We take no official position regarding the SSPX and/or so-called independent chapels other than what we state on our web and facebook page. We certainly do not permit rash judgment of the SSPX such as statements accusing them of schism or heresy especially in light of statements from the Holy See saying that the SSPX is neither. We give the SSPX neither uncritical support nor universal condemnation. Furthermore I have received approval from Father James Fryar of the Fraternity of Saint Peter to list him as a spiritual advisor of CKLC. Go on the webpage and see. Also I have had Father Robert Bishop who does the Latin Mass at St. Therese Church in Alhambra review my website and tell me he saw no problem with it. My theological advisor Mr. David Rodriguez confirmed with his spiritual director that it was alright to be a theological advisor to my group. He is listed on my web page in the "About" section. You may want to consult with your spiritual director/advisor as well. You are welcome to contact all these individuals to confirm although I am not sure how much Father Bishop remembers our conversation since it was over the telephone.
And as I said before CKLC has not taken a position regarding whether Vatican II is in continuity with tradition. If you believe it is in continuity I am not going to consider that as disqualifying you from being a site administrator. However, we do assent and agree and we expect all those who volunteer with us to assent and agree with the traditional infallible teaching of the Church regarding religious liberty especially as expressed in the Encyclical Quanta Cura by Blessed Pope Pius IX. (See here: http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quanta.htm). We condemn and reject and we expect all those who volunteer with us to condemn and reject any and all of the errors condemned and rejected by the Church in this Encyclical. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia Quanta Cura is described as one of the "final decisions of the infallible teaching authority of the Church..."
We also condemn and reject and we expect all those who volunteer with us to condemn and reject any and all of the errors condemned and rejected by the Church in Blessed Pope Pius IX's Syllabus of Errors. (See here: http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm). According to the Catholic Encyclopedia "The binding power of the Syllabus of Pius IX is differently explained by Catholic theologians. All are of the opinion that many of the propositions are condemned if not in the Syllabus, then certainly in other final decisions of the infallible teaching authority of the Church, for instance in the Encyclical "Quanta Cura"... [N]evertheless the binding force of the condemnation in regard to all the propositions is beyond doubt. For the Syllabus, as appears from the official communication of Cardinal Antonelli, is a decision given by the pope speaking as universal teacher and judge to Catholics the world over. All Catholics, therefore, are bound to accept the Syllabus. Exteriorly they may neither in word nor in writing oppose its contents; they must also assent to it interiorly." (See here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14368b.htm)
The Encyclical Quanta Cura condemns the following statement: "the best constitution of public society and (also) civil progress altogether require that human society be conducted and governed without regard being had to religion any more than if it did not exist; or, at least, without any distinction being made between the true religion and false ones." (paragraph 3)
These other statements are condemned as well: "that is the best condition of civil society, in which no duty is recognized, as attached to the civil power, of restraining by enacted penalties, offenders against the Catholic religion, except so far as public peace may require." (Ibid).
The Encyclical goes on to describe this statement as an "erroneous opinion" that is "most fatal in its effects on the Catholic Church and the salvation of souls" and an "insanity": "liberty of conscience and worship is each man's personal right, which ought to be legally proclaimed and asserted in every rightly constituted society; and that a right resides in the citizens to an absolute liberty, which should be restrained by no authority whether ecclesiastical or civil, whereby they may be able openly and publicly to manifest and declare any of their ideas whatever, either by word of mouth, by the press, or in any other way." (Ibid). And persons who preach this statement are preaching "liberty of perdition". (Ibid).
Christ the King Law Center (CKLC) condemns and rejects the above statements and expects all those who volunteer with us to condemn and reject these statements.
The Syllabus of Errors condemns the following propositions:
"15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true.
55. The Church ought to be separated from the State, and the State from the Church.
77. In the present day it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship.
78. Hence it has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship.
79. Moreover, it is false that the civil liberty of every form of worship, and the full power, given to all, of overtly and publicly manifesting any opinions whatsoever and thoughts, conduce more easily to corrupt the morals and minds of the people, and to propagate the pest of indifferentism.
80. The Roman Pontiff can, and ought to, reconcile himself, and come to terms with progress, liberalism and modern civilization."
Christ the King Law Center (CKLC) condemns and rejects these propositions and expects all those who volunteer with us to condemn and reject these statements.
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